Take a good look at this picture: http://tinyurl.com/8dwwlya – what do you see?
I’ll tell you what I see – some very misguided and gullible people being led astray by master fabricator Steve Nislick, co-founder of NYCLASS. I know that many of the people in attendance mean well – they think “we’re saving the horses!”, but that simply is not the case. They watched the movie “Blinders” and think it’s the truth when nothing could be further from the truth. The maker of that movie, Donny Moss, together with Mr. Nislick and others in the anti-carriage horse business (and it is a “business” – in every sense of the word) know it is not the truth and yet they carry their lies forward.
All that money and not one single horse was helped. Not. One. Single. Horse.
All of this to put 220 horses and the families, not to mention the stable hands, the vets, the farriers, the hay and grain suppliers, and all the other folks that support this industry, who depend on them out of work – out of work. Why would they want to do this you may ask. It’s all about real estate and money, as I’ll get to in a minute. As I said, it is a business.
How many of those in attendance have actually been in the stables? None. How many of them have actually talked to the carriage drivers (other than to scream insults and obscenities)? None. How many of them have talked to the vets, farriers, hay or grain suppliers, or any of the other folks that work their butts off for these horses? None.
Only one celebrity supporter of the anti-carriage horse measures has accepted an invitation to tour the stables. They’ve all been invited and yet only one has agreed. Why is that? Are they afraid of the truth?
One can only hope that after some education the supporters of Mr. Nislick’s anti-carriage horse business will change their minds as did Devon B. Katzev, President of Straight Arrow Products, Inc., makers of Mane ‘n Tail, after visiting the stables and learning the truth about the NYC carriage horses. You can read Mr. Katzev’s letter on the subject here: http://tinyurl.com/6uodkgp
Why should you care about this issue?
Although the fight over the carriage horses in NYC may seem distant and of little concern to anyone outside of the city, this well-funded and misguided campaign is attempting to ban horses from NYC by taking the privately-owned horses from their rightful owners without due process of law on behalf of a real estate developer and radical animal rights groups like PETA, the Humane Society of the United States, and WAR (Win Animal Rights, which, by the way, was founded by a convicted animal abuser Camille Hankins, http://tinyurl.com/92rlo2x).
These groups have stated publicly that the NYC carriage horses are an “easy first target” and they intend to go after ANY use of a horse – so no riding, no showing, nothing – just as they are making inroads into banning the use, work, or breeding of dogs (including service dogs for the disabled), and any and all uses of any animal for any reason. And they are doing so under the utterly false “welfare of the animals” banner using people like those in the picture above who haven’t done any independent research on the proposed “cause” to appear mainstream.
1. Facts about the NYC Carriage Horses
So, in the interest of your education let me give you some facts about the NYC carriage horses:
There has NEVER been a carriage horse driver cited for abuse of a carriage horse.
There has NEVER been a citation for mistreatment, cruelty, etc.
There have been three carriage horses that have died as a result of collisions with traffic in the past 30 (that’s THIRTY) years: Chester (1985), Tony (1990) and Spotty (2006). There have been roughly a half dozen other carriage horses who have died while at work in the past 30 (that’s THIRTY) years – most notably Charlie who died of unknown causes in October 2011 (http://tinyurl.com/cwplyk2), Smoothie in 2007 (from head trauma and shock after spooking into a tree due to a snare drum), Juliet in 2007 (colic), Jackie in 1999 (electrocution thanks to ConEd and stray voltage).
I am in no way minimizing the death of any horse, but this is a remarkable record. There is no other riding discipline that can come close – NONE – especially not Mr. Nislick’s, which is eventing. That’s right. Eventing. Considered one of the most dangerous sports for both horse and rider. (http://tinyurl.com/9fwhy7s)
Stop and think about that fact for a moment – Steve Nislick is an eventer and he’s claiming that being a carriage horse in NYC is not safe. Talk about a disconnect. Since 2007 approximately 55 horses have died while participating in the sport of eventing. So, in the last five years 55 – that’s FIFTY-FIVE – horses have died while eventing, 22 of them U.S. horses. (http://tinyurl.com/9bhr7t9)
I am in no way disparaging the sport of eventing since it is a sport I love and have participated in. But it is simply a flat out lie, as Mr. Nislick well knows, to claim that the NYC carriage horses are somehow in greater danger from death and/or serious injury all while he participates in a sport that is, in fact, dangerous to not only the horses but the riders as well.
Contrary to the lies being told by the anti-carriage crowd the stables are clean, open, airy, and well-ventilated, stalls are well-bedded and big enough for the horses to turn around and lie down, the horses can all see each other, they have plenty of hay, custom mix grain, automatic waterers, sprinklers in case of, God forbid, a fire, misters and fans. Plus 24/7/365 stable hands. Regular vet and farrier visits. And yes, I most certainly would board my horse in their stables.
The carriages are not “hard” for the horses to pull – aside from the fact that most of the carriage horses are drafts and draft-crosses, horses bred to pull – the wheels have, imagine this!, ball bearings. I’ve seen the stable hands move them around with one hand. Trust me, even fully loaded, they are not hard for a horse to pull. As an example, you can see a video of a carriage being pulled by a man here: http://tinyurl.com/978fb2p
Also contrary to the claims of the anti-horse crowd the horses do not suffer from respiratory problems. As I said, the stables are very well-ventilated and contrary to popular belief the air in NYC is actually quite clean. According to the American Lung Association’s “State of the Air” report (http://www.stateoftheair.org/), New York County, NY (i.e., Manhattan) has better air quality than Lancaster County, PA (Amish country) or Hunterdon County, NJ (where Steve Nislick keeps his eventing horses).
The drivers must present all the paperwork upon demand by an ASPCA agent (and don’t forget that the ASPCA supports a ban) or city inspector. On average the ASPCA performs about 180 hackline inspections every year where they check all paperwork, plus the horses. That’s not counting stable inspections and individual horse inspections. And that’s not counting inspections by the city inspectors.
The NYC carriage horses are regulated by both the NYC Administrative Code / Rules of the City of New York and New York State Agriculture and Market Law. Title 17 Chapter 3 Subchapter 3 of the Administrative Code deals with Rental Horses (riding and carriage) and their oversight by the Health Dept. Title 20 Chapter 2 Subchapter 2 of the Code is their licensing regulations with the Dept. of Consumer Affairs. Title 19 touches on their work on public streets. All these rules and regulations – from at what temperature the horses must be blanketed, to how many hours they can work, to where and when they can work, to what the rate card must look like, to specifics about their 2x per year vet inspections, etc., etc. runs to over 40 pages single spaced.
The New York City carriage horses are some of the most regulated animals in this country. The fact there has never been a citation for mistreatment or cruelty, even with an awful lot of folks looking for it (including the ASPCA which supports a ban), speaks volumes.
2. Money and Real Estate
As for NYCLASS and its “concern” for the carriage horses, in reality, this has NOTHING to do with the animals – it’s all about money and real estate. As noted above, NYCLASS was founded by real estate developer Steve Nislick who wants the land the carriage stables currently occupy.
Did you know that the ASPCA donated over $450,000 between 2008-2011 to NYCLASS and that Ed Sayres, the soon-to-be-former-CEO of the ASPCA is also co-founder and co-president of NYCLASS along with Steve Nislick? You should read the accusations of a former ASPCA inspector, Henry Ruiz, about the ASPCA’s agenda as far as the carriage horses are concerned: http://tinyurl.com/dx6kown
Did you know that Steve Nislick, CEO of Edison Properties, “…which owns warehouses and parking lots in far-west midtown, which happens to also be home to the city’s five carriage horse stables” (http://tinyurl.com/9rjnuho), the parent company of Edison ParkFast and Manhattan Mini Storage, via Manhattan Mini Storage gave PETA $125,000 to run Lea Michele’s anti-carriage-horse campaign in January 2011?
Yep – PETA, which not only kills 97 percent of the animals it takes in, even the ones it admits are adoptable, but supports horse slaughter (http://tinyurl.com/83tef56). So this is about the horses again how?
As Elizabeth Forel, one of the leaders of the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages (CBHDC), has stated: “The hand writing is on the wall. When this industry goes down, it may well be because of the Hudson Yards/Hells Kitchen real estate development project that will wipe out two stables. And then move uptown to take the others. Manhattan real estate is very valuable and many developers have their eyes on the redevelopment of the far west side. You can rant at NY Class and the ASPCA all you want – but you can’t stop this kind of progress.” (http://tinyurl.com/9jlwqty)
The same CBHDC that regularly misrepresents the health and well-being of the NYC carriage horses, for example, putting out a press release that one of the carriage horses had a “broken leg” and “probably got a bullet through the head.” (http://tinyurl.com/76cqqtx)
The same CBHDC that is regularly on the hackline protesting with WAR and the other NYCLASS folks.
Now, really, do you still think this has anything to do with the horses?
3. Experts
They, particularly Donny Moss, claim that “real” horsemen and equine “experts” (which they refuse to name) support a ban. Well, as I said, they won’t name their “real” horsemen and equine “experts”, so I don’t know who they are but I know a real and true horseman that supports the work the carriage horses do, Buck Brannaman. From his book, The Faraway Horses (page 251):
“Next on my schedule were a couple of young women from MTV and Rolling Stone magazine. One of them asked, “What about those poor horses in Central Park? Don’t you think it’s awful how they have to pull those heavy carriages all day?”
I had an answer for that question “No, I don’t,” I said, then explained that the Central Park horses are content. Pulling carriages on rubber-rimmed wheels on paved streets is a low-stress job, and the horses are calm and relaxed, not anxiously laying their ears back or wringing their tails. Plus, these horses get lots of attention and affection from passerby. And horses love attention and affection as much as we do.
The horses that people should be concerned about are the neglected ones that, after the “newness” of ownership wears off, live in box stalls all day. These horses have no purpose, no jobs to do. All they do is eat and make manure. Even prisoners get to exercise more than these horses, and the horses have never done anything wrong. If they had the choice, these horses would choose to be carriage horses rather than stand in their stalls.”
Even if I had not spoken with Mr. Brannaman personally about this issue, I’d take his word over their mystery “real” horsemen and equine “experts” any day of the week.
Plus, not only am I a horsewoman, unlike many that support the anti-carriage horse business, but I’ve actually been in the stables, spoken with the drivers, etc. I know what is true and what is not.
4. Electric Cars
Let’s talk about those faux antique electric cars that are being touted as a replacement for the carriage horses, which is what this party was all about. Bottom line – there is not even a proto-type available. In an article in the New York Times (Emily B. Hager, Meet the Contraption That Wants to Replace Central Park Horses, N.Y. Times, Oct. 7, 2011, http://tinyurl.com/3eeqa8c) the developer of the prototype, Jason Wenig “…said that once he got the green light, he could have prototypes on the road in a year.”
Over one year later and still no prototype, hence the party.
So, basically, there is nothing in place to have actual, useable cars on the road. And who is going to pay to build all of the prototypes and the cars? Where will these cars be garaged? And who is going to pay for their upkeep? Where are the spent batteries going to be disposed?
In the same article it states: “The cars are projected to cost $125,000 to $175,000. NY-Class envisions that a nonprofit group that provides financing to start-ups would buy the cars and lease them to drivers for $21,000 a year. Purchasing a new horse and carriage costs $15,000 on average.”
I would hardly call this an enticing offer for the carriage horse owners or drivers – “envisions that a nonprofit group…” is not the same thing as a done deal. And leasing at $21,000 PER YEAR? I’ll bet that doesn’t include garaging, maintenance, repairs, etc. And, of course, there are no projections as to a likely income.
So, basically, the carriage horse owners or drivers are being asked to give up their horses, their carriage, their livelihood for the possibility of maybe getting a lease for one of these cars? They will not be the only ones affected by this – what about their families, the stable hands, the vets, the farriers, the hay and grain suppliers, and all the other folks that support this industry, and their families?
The projected cost of the proto-type is between $400,000 and $475,000 – if you are a horse person you know that this economy coupled with the drought has wreaked havoc on horses. Imagine what that kind of money could do for horses that really need help.
5. Is Bill S5013/A7748 Constitutional? Heck no!
NYS Senator Tony Avella and Assemblymember Linda Rosenthal have introduced a bill into the New York State legislature, S5013/A7748, which would prohibit the operation of horse-drawn cabs in the City of New York. This bill amends section 17-239 of the New York City Administrative Code (Code) and states, in part:
Disposition of licensed horse. a. The department shall be notified of the transfer of ownership or other disposition of a licensed horse …. Such notice shall include the date of disposition and [if sold in New York city,] the name and address of the buyer or other transferee and such other information as the commissioner may prescribe.
b. A horse shall not be sold or disposed of except in a humane manner, which, for the purposes of this subchapter shall mean one of the following:
1. The owner shall sell or donate the horse to a private individual who signs an assurance that the horse will not be sold and shall be kept solely as a companion animal and not employed in another horse-drawn carriage business or as a work horse and will be cared for humanely for the remainder of the horse’s natural life; or
2. The owner shall sell or donate the horse to whose president or executive director signs an assurance that the horse will not be sold and shall be kept solely as a companion animal and not employed in another horse-drawn carriage business and will be cared for humanely for the remainder of the horse’s natural life.
Any lawyers want to tell me what is wrong with this? Heck, forget about lawyers – anyone with any common sense want to tell what is wrong with this?
I’ll give you the first hint: all the carriage horses are privately owned.
I’ll give you a second hint: not all of the owners live in New York.
Any of the co-signers of this bill want to tell me how you are going to pay for all the lawsuits that WILL arise if this trampling of the owners’ Constitutional rights comes to pass?
And what happens to the horses? There are currently 220 NYC carriage horses. Who is going to pay for their forced retirement? Remember, they cannot be adopted out as driving OR riding horses – basically, they are to be pasture pets for the rest of their lives, which could last well into their 30s. None of the anti-carriage horse crowd knows how much money it takes to care for a horse. They can’t just be thrown into a pasture – they will still need shelter, hay, grain, vet, farrier, etc. Again – who is going to pay for this?
And where is this magical pasture? That’s right – as is typical of their machinations they won’t say but have assured the carriage horse owners that they have it covered.
I have one word in response: bullshit.
6. The Carriage Drivers and Protestors
Much has been made of the video of the carriage driver who used foul language and slurs against the protestors. Of course what he said was not acceptable (http://tinyurl.com/8zutpgn); however, the video that was shopped around was highly edited and left out the taunts and slurs the protestors regularly heap upon the carriage drivers (you can see an example here: http://tinyurl.com/8ud3o9u).
For approximately six years a growing group of radical animal rights activists have been assembling on 59th Street to harangue, harass, insult and bait the carriage drivers and their passengers, all while attempting to interfere with a legal business using some of the foulest racial, ethnic, and misogynistic slurs imaginable.
They taunt the drivers off camera and then turn the camera on when they get a response or, as in the case of this video, they simply edit it to tell one side f the story. The protestors have made children in the carriages cry and have even told a pregnant carriage driver that her baby “should be born dead or retarded”. They’ve wished horrible diseases and slow and painful deaths on other carriage drivers. Online they have championed actual sabotage of the carriages and stables.
This driver, followed, filmed, and dogged, was pushed to the brink by protestors who week in and week out, year after year called him “bog trotter”, “drunken Irish scum”, “dickless”, “ball-less”, “animal abuser”, ad nauseum – and he snapped. Again, what he said was unacceptable and he apologized.
Alec Baldwin called a carriage driver a “faggot” back in 1992, inside City Hall. He apologized and all was forgiven. But let’s not forget that that was not the only time he has used anti-gay slurs (http://tinyurl.com/7ojbzyu). And yet he is welcomed by the anti-carriage horse crowd with open arms.
Another protestor, Roxanne Delgado, was arrested on August 18, 2012, for assaulting a carriage driver and was charged the following day with three counts of assault and one count of harassment (http://tinyurl.com/9kmx7sv and http://tinyurl.com/9mh7r9q). After a ridiculous attempt to shun her by photoshopping her out of protest photos she has been welcomed back with open arms.
No, two wrongs do not make a right, but the hypocrisy is astonishing – if you support the anti-carriage crowd you will be forgiven no matter what; if you do not, you won’t.
If you want to see what the drivers put up with on a regular basis, come down to the hackline any weekend. It is shocking that groups of people are being allowed to shout lies and obscenities at the carriage drivers and their customers and interfere with the operation of a lawful business.
7. Final Thoughts
My personal opinion is that Mr. Nislick and the radical animal rights activists are trying to wear the industry down so it gives up and then Mr. Nislick can get the property he so desperately wants (so desperately he is willing to do anything to get it) and the radical animal rights activists can claim they “saved” the horses without spending a dime.
Don’t let them get away with it. If you want to see the truth about the carriage horses, just ask. Carriage Horse Facts on Facebook is an open group (unlike the anti–pages, which ban all carriage horse supporters – please feel free to test the veracity of this claim) where you can ask questions and get truthful answers: Carriage Horse Facts, http://tinyurl.com/99enodh.
In addition, https://www.youtube.com/user/StopLiesSeeTruth and https://www.youtube.com/user/bluestarequiculture tell the real truth about the NYC carriage horses.
I hope that you will do your own investigation – look at both the information put out by the pro carriage horse folks and the anti-carriage horse folks. Ask questions. Come and see for yourselves.
There is simply not one single thing that is abusive about this type of work.
Just wanted to update one thing and add another – the celebrity that was going to tour the stables has bowed to pressure and has now declined to do so. Why you wouldn’t want to be educated on a subject you claim to feel “passionately” about is beyond me. Frankly, I think willful ignorance is the deadliest of sins, but it’s her loss.
I also wanted to add this clip of perennial protestor Roxanne Delgado making children taking a carriage ride cry: http://tinyurl.com/c2pdtsg
Some more great information about the NYC carriage horses: http://www.equiculture.org/nyc-position-statement.aspx
I think removing the carriage horses from Central Park would be substantial loss to the City and a black eye to tourism. In my twenty years in NYC, passing by the cab stands the horses all seemed calm and relaxed, even with cabs whizzing past their butts. I recall many a horse standing there so relaxed, in fact, that it took a little nap while waiting for its next fare. They aren’t relaxed because they’re drugged, either. They have bright eyes, are curious, carefully groomed, and they get to eat a lot. It seems like they’re always eating something when they aren’t actually pulling. That’s probably not the case, but it just seems like I always remember them eating when I walked past the stands.
Shenlei, thank you SO MUCH for your comment – you are right on the money. The drivers carry buckets of grain and, of course, plenty of carrots! March 22 – 24, 2013 will be the second annual ClipClop, which is a way for the public to meet the horses and support them and Blue Star Equiculture. It would be fabulous if you would join us.
I think there are merits to both sides of the issue. I met Eliz. Forel and she is sincere, part of the Coalition to Ban Horsedrawn Carriages. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The rosy picture you paint is not all true. SOME of the stables are ok, the horses have no pasture, and I saw with my own eyes, a driver throwing feed on the filthy New York Street for his horse to eat. When I asked him if that was good for the horse, he started yelling at me that I should worry about the homeless. My response was, a human being has a choice and that horse does not. The sprinkler systems as well are a late addition much of it due to the pressure of the protestors. We’ve had three incidents in New York of horses bolting, people injured and anyone who says NYC air is terrific in 90 degree heat walking behind buses and cars sucking in the fumes is just plain LYING. I am ashamed at how these horses are worked – so many violations – go on youtube and you’ll see PLENTY of instances of horses with respiratory distress and i KNOW because I showed them to the wife of an equine vet and horseowner. I think the entire horse community has a lot to answer for in many areas of ownership. Donnie Moss is a wonderful person and Blinders is footage shot by him. To paint such a glorious picture in this article is dishonest. It’s cheaper for these guys to just get another horse from the Amish and make no mistake about 50 or so “disappear” each year. They shave off the tatoo on their hoof.
Go to youtube and visit Equinne Advocate’s web site and read the stories of the horses that were saved including BobbyII freedom, a NYC carriage horse sent to PA and rescued by Eliz. Forel and Equinne Advocates.
no, the truth does not lie in the middle and there is not merit on both sides. These people out to oppress the carriage horse trade are liars and there is no merit in lying. They are predators and hysterics and need to be stopped.
The rosy picture you paint is not all true.
>>Such as? I have provided proof to back up every single one of my assertions (other than those I clearly marked as my opinion) – where is your proof? “Because I said so” is not proof.
SOME of the stables are ok, the horses have no pasture,
>>As I said, by law, all the horses are mandated 5 weeks of vacation per year and most get far more time off than that.
and I saw with my own eyes, a driver throwing feed on the filthy New York Street for his horse to eat.
>>My horse eats off the ground and off the floor of his stall. Where do you think wild or “free” horses eat? That’s right – off the ground. Granted, the NYC streets are not “clean” but a horse will generally not eat if their food is on top of or mixed with something unpalatable.
We’ve had three incidents in New York of horses bolting, people injured
>>Out of how many carriage rides? How many people are injured in NYC by other modes of transportation?
and anyone who says NYC air is terrific in 90 degree heat walking behind buses and cars sucking in the fumes is just plain LYING.
>>By law the horses don’t work when it’s hotter than 89 degrees and the EPA disagrees with your assessment of the air quality in NYC.
I am ashamed at how these horses are worked – so many violations – go on youtube and you’ll see PLENTY of instances of horses with respiratory distress and i KNOW because I showed them to the wife of an equine vet and horseowner.
>>Where are these videos? Links, please. When were they shot? Are you sure they are NYC carriage horses? No vet worth their salt would comment about a horse they do not know based on a picture. The fact is that no NYC carriage horse suffers from respiratory distress. I challenge you to prove otherwise and, again, “because I said so” is not proof.
To paint such a glorious picture in this article is dishonest.
>>So far you’ve not proven your points – you’ve merely given your opinion. If you have actual FACTS to back up your assertions, please provide them and spare me anything from Mr. Moss.
It’s cheaper for these guys to just get another horse from the Amish
>>This comment proves you know nothing about the NYC carriage horses
and make no mistake about 50 or so “disappear” each year.
>>Not true – when they go on their vacation they are taken off the rolls.
They shave off the tatoo on their hoof.
>>They most certainly do NOT “shave off” the hoof tattoo. Doing so would be very obvious and I challenge you to prove your assertion.
Go to youtube and visit Equinne Advocate’s web site and read the stories of the horses that were saved including BobbyII freedom, a NYC carriage horse sent to PA and rescued by Eliz. Forel and Equinne Advocates.
>>Your information about Bobby is false – you can read more here: http://www.equiculture.org/forel-response.aspx
>>There have been no other NYC carriage horses “saved” – that is a flat out lie. If you are referring to Chance (Chocolate) you can read the truth about him here: http://www.equiculture.org/Data/Sites/1/carriages/SaffranReply.pdf
First of all, the horse on the video had the heaves – second, the videos are from NYC carriage horses because residents of NY use their IPhones and post it. There are watchers that document abuse – they certainly do work them when it’s hotter than 90 degrees – I’ve seen it myself – what is your link to the trade? There are videos of ILLEGAL U turns as well, the troughs are filled with garbage and some are turned off when the weather gets cold. I don’t know who you are but I am a life long NY resident and I can tell you that I am ashamed at the life they lead. They stand in direct sun, they work in severe cold – there are photos of them working during the storms – when they were not supposed to be. Elizabeth Forel is a very sane, ethical person who is part of a grass roots organization that has nothing to do with Nislick. I agree, his motives are suspect and I chose to believe Elizabeth because she has painstakingly catalogued and followed these horses for years – her agenda is nothing but the wefare of the horse. I saw myself the laziness of a driver who neglected to use his feed bag because it was easier to throw the feed on the filthy street. I suggest you re-watch Blinders – as for their supposed vacation – there are statements by ASPCA Vets who said they come back WORSE from wherever the heck it is they send them. You are being dishonest with yourself and others.
First of all, the horse on the video had the heaves – second, the videos are from NYC carriage horses because residents of NY use their IPhones and post it.
>>Which videos are you talking about? Prove the horse has “heaves” – you can’t because it does not.
There are watchers that document abuse – they certainly do work them when it’s hotter than 90 degrees – I’ve seen it myself – what is your link to the trade?
>>I have no link to the trade and even if I did, so what? The law is that when the ASPCA issues a heat alert the horses can finish any ride they are currently giving and then must return to the stables.
There are videos of ILLEGAL U turns as well,
<>Sometimes they are, but I have also seen them clean and operating. Yes, some are turned off when it’s cold because they would freeze otherwise. The drivers carry water for their horses.
I don’t know who you are but I am a life long NY resident and I can tell you that I am ashamed at the life they lead.
>>I’ve lived in the tri-state area and worked in NYC. You shouldn’t be – they live a much better life than many horses. I’ve actually been in the stables – have you?
They stand in direct sun, they work in severe cold – there are photos of them working during the storms – when they were not supposed to be.
>>Please post them as well as the date and time the pictures were taken. Please state whether or not the ASPCA had issued a weather alert prior to the pictures being taken.
>>You do know that there are horses that live outside 24/7/365, yes? What, exactly, do you think horses in Arizona and Alaska, for example do?
I suggest you re-watch Blinders
>> Once was more than enough, thanks. The movie was made five plus years ago – you’d think if there was so much abuse going on the video would have updates, now wouldn’t you?
ASPCA Vets who said they come back WORSE from wherever the heck it is they send them.
>>Post a link to these comments.
You are being dishonest with yourself and others.
>>I can say the exact same thing about you.
>>As per the usual, you, as part of the anti-carriage horse crowd, posts opinions posing as facts and can provide NOTHING to back up your claims. I posted a ton of links to actual facts about the horses, none of which you have addressed. Unless you have actual facts to post, please don’t waste your time responding.
Just wanted to update one thing and add another – the celebrity that was going to tour the stables has bowed to pressure and has now declined to do so. Why you wouldn’t want to be educated on a subject you claim to feel “passionately” about is beyond me. Frankly, I think willful ignorance is the deadliest of sins, but it’s her loss.
I also wanted to add this clip of perennial protestor Roxanne Delgado making children taking a carriage ride cry: http://tinyurl.com/c2pdtsg
if any protester of anything – was waving a their phone camera in my face and shouting at me, I would take their flipping phone and fling it into the street. Who do these nuts think they are???
Normally I no longer bother to post regrding this controversy except on my own fb page. I do believe that the “TRUTH” regarding the NYC horses in particular probably lies in the middle, with extremists on both sides refusing to see it.
I will say, however, that if a horse has an advanced or chronic case of “heaves” it is certainly possible at times to see that from a photo or video if the quality of the image is clear enough. A horse with a chronic case of heaves develops a “heaves line” along its side. This is caused by it using its muscles to try to push air out and suck air into its lungs using its diaphram. Vets and experienced horse people know what to look for, and can indeed spot a heaves line if the quality of a video or photo is clear enough.
As far as the citations thing goes, I know that the ASPCA officers sometines “visit” the owners of horses about which they have received complaints, but if the owner agrees to follow their directions concerning removing the horse from active work until it is looking better, the officers do not write any citations.
I also know it is against the law in NYC and most other places for motor vehicles or horse-drawn vehicles to make U-turns– especially in the middle of a block and not at a corner.
It is also against the law in most places to leave a horse unattended or unsecured as in not tied to a stationary object like a hitching post when the driver is not on the box–which is proper carriage speak for– in the driver’s seat.
There are, indeed, carriage horse owners and drivers in NYC and elsewhere who do follow all the rules and do take great care of their horses. There are, however, people in the livery business in NYC and elsewhere who do not follow all the rules and do not take excellent care of their horses.
There are plenty of photos on the Internet and news report footage to prove my statments in the three last paragraphs above. As far as the way the ASPCA usually handles possible neglect complaints, well you will have to find an NYC carriage driver or former driver, who was willing to admit the truth, as I did.
NYC police allow the drivers to make U turns particularly at 59th street because its physical layout makes it impossible not to (carriages would have to go about a mile through CP to avoid a u turn). If you don’t believe me, feel free to contact the NYC police and ask – or better yet – look at all the photos/videos of carriages making u-turns and ask yourself why none of the numerous police officers on hand don’t write tickets for it.
How the ASPCA handles complaints is well-known – the fact of the matter is that in the last 30 plus years no driver has ever been cited for abuse, neglect, or mistreatment of a carriage horse. Do you really believe that if the ASPCA, a group that supports a ban of the carriage horses, had ANY evidence of abuse, neglect, or mistreatment it wouldn’t be all over the front page?
I can’t speak to the driver you claim to have talked to, but I suggest you read the allegations of a former ASPCA investigator, Henry Ruiz, about the ASPCA’s agenda as far as the carriage horses are concerned: http://tinyurl.com/dx6kown
Ms. Willis, I hope you are not so naive to think that any amount of improvement in the living or working conditions or enhanced oversight of the NYC carriage horses will deter the activists from pursuing their goal of seeing carriage horses gone from NYC. As long as a car moves in Manhattan, a siren sounds, or indeed, any horse is “enslaved” between carriage shafts, these folks will pursue their goal of mandating what’s best for other people’s horses: “liberation” for all of them. The claims of illegal U-turns and horses in poor health, and debate over the lack of citations are attempts to appeal to the emotions of potential supporters while failing to reveal the core mission of “saving” all non-human animals from human influence.
And lastly and maybe most importantly, if the fact that improvements could be made in a horse’s living or working conditions justifies separating the horse from its owner, then all horse/human bonds are at risk, even yours.
I’m sorry but Mrs. Willis but are you a former NYC carriage driver ?
Hamilton- I don’t think any horseperson needs to be told there are bad apples in ANY particular horse sphere – we all know that. You sound like you think you are revealing some deep, dark secret that nobody else knows. The entry here as I read it does not assert that there are no bad apples, so I am not sure why you are you are bringing that up. Sounds like you have an axe to grind, and like the idea of setting yourself up as some type of oracle, brokering the middle ground that somehow only you can see. I’ll tell you something, there is no middle ground with PETA nuts, I should know, I dealt with them for years. But what is worse than them are people like you who think you can remove yourself from either side and sit on a throne in the middle. You cannot, and you will learn that. Your time spent driving a carriage in NYC should have been enough to teach you that, since they have it rougher than almost anybody. I wonder if you don’t have a spite you are nursing against someone in NYC, maybe the person you worked for?
In response to those that say there are “too many” carriage horse accidents – I give you this:
“New York City school buses were involved in 1,700 accidents last year — an average of nearly five per day, DNAinfo.com New York has learned.
The accidents — ALL OF WHICH WERE CAUSED BY THE PUBLIC SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS (emphasis added), Department of Education records show — resulted in more than 900 injuries, according to safety records obtained through the state’s Freedom of Information Law.”
http://tinyurl.com/cyhc2wh
A horse is not a bus – they know fear, terror, discomfort – I had the honor of attending a lecture at Hunter College Saturday night by Dr. Temple Grandin. She was asked about whether horses belong in an urban environment – her response was this – IF they are well cared for, IF their equipment fits them properly, IF the horse is big enough to carry the weight, IF they are not worked in extreme weather conditions – tons of IFS and I can tell you that many of those drivers get away with sub par care for those horses – there are untold examples – farriers are expensive and not all are good – its a BUSINESS and as such, it’s always the bottom line. Keep in mind, that Dr. Grandin being autistic is not a touchy feeley person but deals in FACTS. I would LOVE to see her inspect at the hack line and down at the stables. She is one of Time’s most influential people in the world. She has revolutionized ranching, farming, not only for the animals but for the people who work with them. Read her books – she is world renowned.
Typical Fanatical Animal Rights nutcase. Dismissing the bus as not having feelings without regard to the 900 injured actual human beings, nearly all children. Because a happy, working horse is in need of “saving” over 900 injured human children and child caretakers.
What a bunch of weirdos.
If you read my blog post you’d know that I deal in FACTS as well. And I can tell you, from personal experience and based on facts, that these horses are well-cared for – have you been in the stables? Have you ever talked to one of the drivers about the care their horses receive?
Considering that Ms. Grandin has zero experience with working horses – her only experience with horses is on a slaughter line – I take her comments with a large grain of salt.
Did you know that Buck Brannaman supports the NYC carriage horses?
From his book, The Faraway Horses (page 251):
Next on my schedule were a couple of young women from MTV and Rolling Stone magazine. One of them asked, “What about those poor horses in Central Park? Don’t you think it’s awful how they have to pull those heavy carriages all day?”
I had an answer for that question “No, I don’t,” I said, then explained that the Central Park horses are content. Pulling carriages on rubber-rimmed wheels on paved streets is a low-stress job, and the horses are calm and relaxed, not anxiously laying their ears back or wringing their tails. Plus, these horses get lots of attention and affection from passerby. And horses love attention and affection as much as we do.
The horses that people should be concerned about are the neglected ones that, after the “newness” of ownership wears off, live in box stalls all day. These horses have no purpose, no jobs to do. All they do is eat and make manure. Even prisoners get to exercise more than these horses, and the horses have never done anything wrong. If they had the choice, these horses would choose to be carriage horses rather than stand in their stalls.
[...] I wrote a blog post about what is really behind the push to ban carriage horses (as you may have guessed, it has nothing to do with the horses), which I invite you to read here: http://thebarnrules.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/18/ [...]